[zpremie272627]

Well i think the title sums it up. I ve been learning Maya/Zbrush/Photoshop for the last 6 years.. I know their community is big and they have tons of tutorials, but wow modding isnt exactly that lacking on tutorials. Nothing is up to date, files dont have the proper test subfolders, and there isnt a true followup of how to learn things. I cant understand how do people learned this without prior experience. Almost every tutorial is outdated or it hasnt the proper test files. I am writting this cause i once read a post about wow modding site isnt good enough.. But as i see , both sites have their problems, nothing is organized it is just simply put in another site...

Anywayz i find wow modding smthg like archaeology, you have to discover everything by yourself... i truly dnt believe someone that just joined wow modding scene can ever learn things, and its pitty cause i was fking fired up.

[Amaroth]

Well, I came here without any prior experience with ANY kind of modding and I was able to simply learn some basics from things which are already written here or shown on YouTube, and I was able to figure out the rest on my own. Its quite discouraging to write fully noob-proof tutorial about things which can be figured out by just running an application and fiding out what are buttons doing by actually clicking on them.

Sometimes its not that easy, but here comes a problem, there are thousands of things one might possibly want to mod in WoW. They are also connected to each other. That makes writing tutorials without assuming that readers already have some basic knowledge very hard. Yes, you might want to say that in such case it would be great to write some tutorials about those basic things, but the biggest problem here is that there is just too huge variety of things which might be considered as "basic" and nearly noone around really knows them all. Because we are all, at least in some fashion, focused only on some parts of modding.

Honestly, since I've learned most of stuff like 4 years ago, I can't really write up to date beginners tutorial, because I do some things in ways which are like antique to some "younger" modders around. And I know about it. But, you know, if it works and isn't broken... don't fix that... For example, I know most of DBCs very well. Can I write DBC editing tutorial? Honestly, no. I use outdated tools, outdated convertors, I work only on WotLK... I would need to make a lot of, for me, unneccessary research to make a DBC editing tutorial. Research you guys can do on your own as well - by using Google I'd use as well anyway, so, why the hell bother... Btw, its hard to describe DBCs when reader doesn't know anything about bit masks. So, lets describe bit masks! Oh, wait, most of DBCs don't actually have bit masks in them. But some do. So... wth now... Make loooong tutorial full of unneccessary information, or a simple one, which won't help half of readers enough anyway?

And, there's one more thing. Forums are FULL of questions which were already answered before and answers to them are actually given in tool manuals and in tutorials (side from fact that those questions themselves were also asked before anyway and even answers to prior questions were not, by a lot of people, actually readen). So... does like anyone even read those tutorials, manuals, does anyone go through prior questions and answers to them, through FAQ, does anyone try to #useGoogle and#useYouTube? Sometimes I'm nearly sure that like NOONE actually does so :D. At least it looks so in each help forum.

 

While I feel for you, acknowledge that getting here isn't easy and while I do know that tutorials here aren't in the best shape, I'd really like to stress that there are reasons for that. I can really think about dozens of things I'd like to do rather than holding someone's hand while noone held mine - and I was fine anyway.

[lululalaland]

well Amaroth you say so that questions were being answered and yet i cant seem to get an answer of someone with dbc knowledge like you on my question about animations in db files... new topic.. made about 2 days ago.... 0 answers. I mean im not even asking for someone to actually do something for me ... just want to know which db file(s) contain(s) attack animations that i have to change to get a different animation for my characters spell. I  dont even want to know which column i have to edit since i can read that mostly on wowdev.wiki... just want to know which file exactly contains the information i am looking for.

[Amaroth]

I don't read every single topic. Sometimes I don't have time to answer. Sometimes I want to answer it later, but I forget to do so. Sometimes I have no idea what the actual fluff does the person asking a question want, since his english is horribly broken or his understanding of thing he's asking bout is literally 0 so I don't even know, what is it he wants. And sometimes I simply don't know what an answer is (quite commonly, honestly). And I'd say its the same deal for every dev around. I'll take a look at your topic and see what I can do for you though.

[zpremie272627]

2 hours ago, Amaroth said:

While I feel for you, acknowledge that getting here isn't easy and while I do know that tutorials here aren't in the best shape, I'd really like to stress that there are reasons for that. I can really think about dozens of things I'd like to do rather than holding someone's hand while noone held mine - and I was fine anyway.

well to sum things up... i understand what you are trying to say at the quote, and i am really not reading with hard feelings..

But the post that i read was from "skarn" i think  who was actually saying why wow modding dies.. I think this was the major topic on his thread and the solution was creating another website with better standing (i hope my english are not that bad).

Well i truly think you are right when you said "  if it works and isn't broken... don't fix that...  " but the truth is, that even the links are dead, i am trying to learn from both sites for example Futa=taliis (or smthg like that, i wont check it right now) , and both sites dnt actually explain. They say do this, then do that.. then do these...

Dude i ve been learning Maya all these years, and even though i am on really good lvl, still there are things that i forget or dont even had my mind think like that.. and maya its a tool with a VAST learning area.. God its not that i am retarded or smthg..!!!

 

And lastly when i said there is no organisation in the forum, i meant that everyone like everyone made a tutorial or smthg, regardless of whether is difficult or not, regardless of whether its the step that you need to move to.. , and noone checks it to change title or smthg so that it can be more organized and usefull to the audience...

And this one is last i promise ^^,  I wanted to see as beginners tutorial and intermediate and etc smthg like  

a) how to make your own custom map with blizz continent  

(there is a tutorial with creating your own map, but it JUMPS from here to there  like a grosshoper)

b) after , how to make your own custom map with continent from scratch.

then go to Coding , or smthg that is needed as 2nd step, and lnik books or smthg from the internet.. i dnt expect to waste your precious ours of your life to teach me, you are not a saint and also you are not getting paid for this. But if you want to be in a forum with more than 10 people that actual understand modding , you should help them to be more organized..

AND GOD some must Links are not working..!!!!!!!!!!  and trust me, 1st i try  google and then i post a question ^^

[Amaroth]

Well, you request tutorials about making a new custom map. And thats a great example to show my points stated above :D. Because the easiest thing to actually do is actually just replacing blizzlike map. Why? Well, if you want to create a new map, you need to:

Edit 2 DBCs. Great, lets make a DBC tutorial first!

Create a WDT for it. OK, lets make a WDT tutorial as well!

Create a WDL for it. Sec, someone might not need to have WDL at all... eh? But I guess WDL tutorial would be fine to do as well.

Create a server side maps for it. Oh, sec, someone might not need to... But still, it should be mentioned there as well...

When we are speaking about server side maps, does a reader already have some test server? Does he have map extractors? If not...

Speaking about a test server, shall we write a tutorial about compiling one's own emulator? (and btw, keep it up to date with new revisions) Oh. Oh...

...

 

So... :D. You can't actually assume that a reader knows absolutely nothing about modding because otherwise writing a tutorial can be quite a maddening task to do :D. I'll see what I can do about this, but some time ago I gave up even on writing czech tutorials and thats my mature language. Writing in english is even a bigger pain to me sometimes (and to those who read it and actually do speak and write english properly probably as well).

[Skarn]

Did not read the full thread, only the initial post. So, I am sorry if I am repeating already said things or not answering some questions.

1. There is only one outdated tutorial. It is the one explaining how to use Noggit. The others might lack some files in the devkit or some small issues. There are 100% complete and relevant tutorials besides that, so saying that no tutorial is up to date is simply wrong.

2. If anything is wrong or not present in _my_ tutorials, I am most likely aware of the issue as I am the one who wrote them. I just lack time to do everything at once but I want to get back to it in January - February.

3. Speaking about learning WoW modding. Those people who came to this scene before 2011-2012 had pretty much only one useful tutorial which is Eluo's Worldbuilding Basics. I can say it did not help me much. Besides that, we had a load of crappy tools that mostly worked through CMD. Noggit worked 10 times worse. Custom WMOs and M2s was only something we could dream about, tools for that purpose were either unusable and unfinished or did not exist at all in most cases. How do you think we learned everything? Practice, experiments, reading of WoWDev wiki and reading information provided by some experienced guys like Schlumpf. Now you have got everything to start. The thing is that now with all available information you can start WoW modding but if you don't dig deeper your experience will stop on the first obstacle you get (believe me WoW modding is made of them). So, take your time learning, ask questions, try things or, as much as I would not want to say it, leave.

[Uthil]

I can give you an example of a new-learner, go check my project on retro porting. I've started over a year ago and now i can tell you that i learned through the process many things about wow-modding. How ? Simply by those guides that those people have here and modcraft and by asking how to overcome things when i was stuck or in the wrong way. Maybe my project isn't a so complicated thing in the eyes of most here that have higher level of experience, tho again demands the knowledge and things and tools that these people provide to make it happen for me and the rest of the community. Its up to you if you want to head deeper in a weird but amazing path of wow modding.

[wungasaurus]

15 hours ago, lululalaland said:

well Amaroth you say so that questions were being answered and yet i cant seem to get an answer of someone with dbc knowledge like you on my question about animations in db files... new topic.. made about 2 days ago.... 0 answers. I mean im not even asking for someone to actually do something for me ... just want to know which db file(s) contain(s) attack animations that i have to change to get a different animation for my characters spell. I  dont even want to know which column i have to edit since i can read that mostly on wowdev.wiki... just want to know which file exactly contains the information i am looking for.

Issue here is exactly what he said though:  there is such a shitload of things to do that the amount of people knowing how to change those animations are somewhat close to 0-2. chances of a full tutorial are 0, replies for your topic are 0.1.

try posting on more than one site, try an irc or so. Wanting answers on non-trivial things is hard.

[Amaroth]

On the other hand Schlumpf, the question is, how can one know which questions are trivial and which not :D.

[Alastor StrixEfuartus]

Well Im not sure what exactly you mean by outdated tuts ? For example my tuts are working very well for messing with M2s in LK environment as I have even remastered one of them so far ... ( nothing much to say Amaroth has said it all )

 

Skarn made my day here :

9 hours ago, Skarn said:

Custom WMOs and M2s was only something we could dream about.

To create custome m2 ... that was my first goal I wanted to achieve when i started modding in 2012  Lookin' at myself now ... well OK but back then it was real hell if you compare it to present days
First 3d static models used MDLVIS which is total crap itsw more unstable then windows 95 dropped off by unstable portal 

[wungasaurus]

6 hours ago, Amaroth said:

On the other hand Schlumpf, the question is, how can one know which questions are trivial and which not :D.

If there are no replies within a day, it was either completely trivial or non trivial!

[Chase]

They are not out of date, its that you are the only one that is going ahead farther than wotlk. People like me and Rangorn who are already far beyond modding Legion just learn stuff ourselves because everyone wants everything handed to them on an 8 year old version of the game.

[Skarn]

3 hours ago, Chase said:

They are not out of date, its that you are the only one that is going ahead farther than wotlk. People like me and Rangorn who are already far beyond modding Legion just learn stuff ourselves because everyone wants everything handed to them on an 8 year old version of the game.

Without sharing thst found information, do not expect that to change anyhow soon. WoW modding exists only because of people sharing information on wowdev.wiki, ownedcore, modcraft, mcnet and other websites.

[wungasaurus]

3 hours ago, Chase said:

They are not out of date, its that you are the only one that is going ahead farther than wotlk. People like me and Rangorn who are already far beyond modding Legion just learn stuff ourselves because everyone wants everything handed to them on an 8 year old version of the game.

"There is no documentation or tools so I will do it but keep it for myself."

Honestly, fuck you people. I wish I could ban you from reading the wiki so you're stuck with doing absolutely everything yourself  

[Amaroth]

1 hour ago, wungasaurus said:

"There is no documentation or tools so I will do it but keep it for myself."

Honestly, fuck you people. I wish I could ban you from reading the wiki so you're stuck with doing absolutely everything yourself  

Nothing more to say, I absolutely agree.

Mate, I lack knowledge, skill and energy to mod Legion. Thats one of reasons why I stay on WotLK, because I can actually work with WotLK. On the other hand, as you might know from this site well enough already, if I find something new out, I share it. If I code a tool to perform some daily tasks quicker, I share it. I don't feel like really pushing WotLK modding to new limits, there's too little to be done anyway, but I try to at least make it quicker, more easy and convenient.

By sharing what you found out you would get less skilled or determined people into Legion modding and some of them would give you stuff in return - new tools, their own experience and finds. Sometimes even questions of those who would like to ask you about something can make you learn more.

This community have made Legion modding possible. By making WoD modding possible. Because MoP modding was made possible. Because Cataclysm modding was made possible. Because WotLK modding was made possible before... Do you actually get where the fluff am I going to? Noone expects anything more than this to simply continue. Or... were you the ones researching stuff when modding has started? No? So where the hell do you get right to keep knowledge based on that (freely shared!) knowledge for yourselves?

"While we teach, we learn." - Seneca

[Rangorn]

Haha, hilarious answers here !

Like Chase said, i consider myself more like an explorer of modding, i'm not the kind of guy making a 3.3.5 mapping project based on Lordaeron, or creating new class or whatever, i want to explore the very last version of wow and searching for what we can do or not.

 

For wungasaurus (the top picture is for you), for my part, i often read the wiki, and sometimes i contribute (mostly db5 structures, i can't really respect the strict C format for chunk and things like that + bad english), for the rest, you must understand guys, i have my own server with 100 players+, i'm not a isolated modder like the majority here, and i don't want to see other server using my own "technology" against me.

It's funny because people begging for help don't understand this concept lmao, it's the same thing for Chase with Parangon.

I always share what i know with Chase, because we have the same interrest and no concurence between us (Parangon is international RP, mine is for french community), because we are both curious about modding on legion, i share with Raeef too because he is interrested with modding legion and he is a cool guy which always give something in back (even when i don't want haha)

 

Why i don't share with the rest of Mc.net ?

You clearly prefer to stay on 3.3.5,you are lazy, you always say "i prefer to stay on wotlk because it' easy, shame on you, you don't explain how to mod on legion blablablablabla....".

i only help valorous people chosen by Odyn himself.

 

[MrXJKz]

hail Rangorn!!!!!!!

[Skarn]

@Rangorn I believe everything is much simplier here. Someone wants to brag about his achievements but keep the teased people away from the knowledge. Case 2: You are just offended with all the community not serving you Legion or whatever knowledge you want on a plate. So, you sit there with your precious bits of knowledge that probably were not exactly hard to find and brag trying to make the community feel irritated. 

If I am wrong and you really do not understand why people stay on 3.3.5a that makes the situation even more sad. The real reasons are simple: a) many of us have started projects back in 2012 or smth when 3.3.5a was fresh. We have tons of work both clientside and serverside bound to core and storyline. b) Alastor's reasons. c) Amaroth's reasons. b) People like you not sharing 3.3.5a knowledge. And honestly, there are actually many people that contribute to your beloved wotlk+ expansions including Barncastle, Luzifix, all WoWDev.wiki guys, many others and even , surprise, me doing work on a new editor. Do you start sensing what is the main problem there?

Am I triggered? Hell no. Just have to get myself something to do in the bus.

 

[Ohai]

While i understand to a degree what Rangorn means doesn't want to share the 'technology' and I agree the rest here should stop focusing on 335, I dont understand ur saying u got a server with 100players. Is profit your angle, can you make a decent amount of money with 100 people? I'm guessing not so not sharing whatever u got is kinda lame in that case.

[Rangorn]

I've started with Bc/wotlk for modding, it isn't an excuse for staying on prehistoric content

Barncastle and Luzifix are doing great work i agree, WoWdev guys aren't people from here, and they are doing amazing work too.

 

 

 

Ohai, it's not about money, it's more about stealing ideas etc...

[Ohai]

16 minutes ago, Rangorn said:

Ohai, it's not about money, it's more about stealing ideas etc...

Yea theyre been threads like this on Modcraft Anthoniestoolbox dude getting angry someones using his 'material' ™ but thats just inevitable here. The whole concept of WoW modding started by stealing Blizzards game, and Blizzard stole everything from every other fanatasy franchise so the whole argument is really pointless.  

[Rangorn]

It's not pointless, it's about stealing the work of something else

 

Blizzard stole ideas from nordic mythology, Tolkien, other various legends or history, it's not stealing the work of somebody.

Modders don't steal blizzard contents too... we just modify or add new elements to the game, it's totally not stealing.

 

BUT, when you stole the content of another modder, you can say it's stealing.

[Amaroth]

Let me try to make myself clear again.

1. Someone makes a research about content of a game. Shares it.
2. Someone makes some tools to edit that content. Shares them.
3. Someone uses those tools to create or mod something. That lets other people know, that something is possible, it makes them want to be able to achieve that as well. And some even try to.
4. More people become familiar with list of things which are possible. More people become interrested. More people means, that there's a bigger chance that some of them will find something entirely new out. And share it.
5. More people doing stuff by using released documentation and tools means that some of them may also be unhappy with already existing tools (they might be unreliable, incomplete, inconvenient to use or just still missing). So they either try to make those tools better or they create a new ones. And they share them.
6. Even MORE people get attracted by BIGGER amount of released knowledge and BIGGER amount of now BETTER released tools and BIGGER amount of achieved stuff which is now even MORE attractive and BETTER overall.

Do you see where is this going? And do you see that by releasing your stuff you can actually profit as well? What you are doing is either just bragging like Skarn said (I, with all honesty, hope and think it is not), or just a short-sighted foolishness. And its also unfair for people like Schlumpf, who have made WotLK modding for you guys possible before and now, if they wanted to move to Legion, they would have to make everything up on their own as they did before, instead of you now helping them in. fucking. fair. return.

Please, also realize that not everyone is actually interrested in finding new stuff out. Some of us simply want to make things, not invent them. We are not all scientists. We all respect scientists and acknowledge that world needs them, but we want to actually make things happen by use of already gathered knowledge, some of us are simply just practical, not academical people. And just a side note, as an IT student, I've got all what is required to do the same stuff you do. I don't, not because of laziness, but because of simply I don't like doing so, like someone doesn't like drawing, someone doesn't like jogging and someone doesn't like rap music, I don't like doing research and inventing new things.

What a tragedy. Does that really mean that I should be cast out of Legion modding community, that I shouldn't be able to mod Legion, does that mean that I can't make Legion maps, help with inspiring people to mod Legion, write tutorials, shoot tutorial videos, help with my showoffs to advertise this whole modding thing, create tools which, while being simply and programmed sometimes in a mediocre way, are helpful for daily tasks and make them much easier and quicker?

Once again, its foolish, selfish and short-sighted of you.

 

But feel free to release another arrogant gibberish about how am I just crying or something. Enjoy. Like for that.

Edited December 2, 2016 by Amaroth

[lululalaland]

1 hour ago, Rangorn said:

It's not pointless, it's about stealing the work of something else

 

Blizzard stole ideas from nordic mythology, Tolkien, other various legends or history, it's not stealing the work of somebody.

Modders don't steal blizzard contents too... we just modify or add new elements to the game, it's totally not stealing.

 

BUT, when you stole the content of another modder, you can say it's stealing.

wait so basically what you are saying that even though you are one of the few ppl who are actually working on wod/ legion modding you are too selfish to share your great methods ? i mean i saw what you are able to do lol kalashnikov in legion .. and yet you dont want to share your stuff with the world ? I mean im struggling with changing animations in legion and i would highly appreciate it if you could help me with that lol, but whatever ...